RE: Can 2 12 volt batteries run a microwave?
And don't forget that not all microwaves will run on an MSW inverter, and some that appear to work will fail "prematurely".
RE: amazing deal on a quiet generator
Are these "use" ratings published anywhere on the net? 125 hours seems pretty low for a 3000w gen.
Confusion here, maybe...
Methinks those California "lifetime" rating labels have to do with how many hours of operation you will get before the emissions issue needs to be addressed, new spark plugs, say.
RE: Battery life issue...
You leave us with the impression that you current have two 12 volt batteries connected in parallel. If that is the case then only one of the batteries need to be "sub-standard" (shorted cell..??) for what you are experiencing.
And yes, MOST converters simply charge the battery to a "standard" voltage, above "float" level, constantly. So left online full time will often boil the electrolyte away and you will need to add water fairly often.
The way I do it is open the converter's battery connection via the provided switch and connect a trickle charger directly to the battery set, two 6 volt deep cycle batteries in series.
That "switch" need only be enabled when you need 12 volts but no shore power connected.
RE: Inverter/Charger - True Sine Wave vs Modified
On another RV list it has recently been reported that use of a MSW inverter has caused electric blanket controls to dangerously overheat and actually "burn up." Is this likely?
What about other AC devices that use resistance to generate heat like space heaters that many of us use to control the moisture in our coaches during those long, damp winter months? Are we risking a coach fire if our shore power connection fails and the inverter kicks in to provide AC to the space heater from the coach batteries?
Thanks,
Bill
I have little doubt that quite a few solid state controllers, directly "off-line" controllers will fail, some dramatically so, on an MSW inverter.
RE: Electronc thermostat install.
Be aware that many "home" thermostats require 24 VAC, typically from a "doorbell" transformer. Certain types of back-lighting will not work on 12 VDC nor will SCR on/off switching.
RE: Too much voltage on inverter...
Your inverter will "trip" if the battery voltage is too low, ~10.5 volts, or if the battery voltage is too high. Your alternator might have been the problem driving down the road. Clean and burnish the chasis battery terminals so the alternator voltage doesn't have to overcome high resistance for charging the battery.
While a meter might read only 14.4 volts for the alternator output it can be "spiking" to a few volts above that average, the inverter's input filter capacitor will charge to the voltage spike PEAK (~16 volts..??) and the inverter will shut down.
RE: Considering New Converter/Charger
Do any of those have an automatic battery switch-over relay so the converter goes into the "controlled" charge state when shore power is available?? I learned the hard way, COOKED battery, that I had to remember to manually switch the battery off-line with shore power connected.
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
The "upstream" GFCI would only trip if there is actually a load to be "picked-up" when you "plug-in"..
Most cases there would be, but....
Hmmmm...
We have discussed, and comfirmed (??) how a GFCI wall outlet breaker works but frankly I can't see how the GFCI CB in my panel could work in the same way since at that point the neutral line is "bundled" with all other neutral lines. All connected to the very same ground bus bar.
????
Some have said that you may have "older" gfci breakers installed.
I am not familiar with any "old" style gfci breakers, I have only see one type.
Your neutral wire that returns from the protected outlets should connect to the neutral screw on the breaker. The coiled white wire coming out of the breaker HAS to go to the neutral buss, not ground.
I am having trouble seeing how a gfci breaker can function without the neutral passing back through it.
Agreed, I'll have to open the breaker panel and look.
The reason I said that the breaker should trip before the plug can be fully inserted is because you are connecting a bolted ground fault, exactly the thing that the gfci is made to protect against. It should detect the ground to neutral fault instantly and trip, without any load needed at all.
If the ground fault detection method is to sense different current flow in the high vs neutral then there MUST be a load on the high side to ground at the time you plug in the circuit if you expect it to trip.
Even a VOM of digital voltmeter.
I can even trip a gfci with my multi-meter. Set it to voltage reading and place one probe to ground, the other to hot or neutral. Before the meter can even register a reading, the gfci has tripped.
From what I can tell, you have one of 2 issues.
Either your gfci breakers are installed incorrectly and not functioning properly, or your rig does not have the neutral and ground connected as you believe.
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
Wwest-
My guess is that you're confused how the ac is wired in your MH. As someone else mentioned, with all ac power off, take an ohm meter and measure the resistance (ground to neutral) of the MH's power cord you plug into your garage.
You've been telling us it's bonded (less than 10 ohms). Others believe it must be an open circuit.
Let's clear this up.
Sal
I have upgraded my converter from the old style step down transformer and full wave rectification to an off-line PWM switcher so I'm pretty sure that when I moved the A/C wiring the neutral side was grounded.
But it is easy to check and I will do so and post the results.
RE: Propane / Electric...which is cheaper (the answer)
I was telling the DW about this post and what I had said about us using the oil filled electric as well as the furnace. She then reminded me that we have an electric heater in the bed. It is like an electric blanket the sits on the mattress under the mattress cover. It has individual thermostats for each side and the heat is warmest at the foot and decreases as it gets near the top. We usually don't leave it on all night but it sure is nice to turn it on a half hour before going to bed and climbing into a nice warm bed. The only problem we have is that our four footed kids know about the warm spots and we sometimes have to fight to get what is ours. May have to find heaters for their beds.
"..warmest at the foot...."
Or just better "insulation"...???
Of the furry kind...??
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
So, given that, I take it at least you would agree with me that the neutral line can be grounded anywhere, and many times, upstream (toward the power source) of the GFCI but not, never downstream...??
As far as the gfci, Yes. Upstream really makes no difference.
But as far as the NEC, close but NO. At ONLY one place can the neutral be bonded to ground on each system.
Most times the bond is accomplished by a special screw in the neutral buss bar of the main load center. This screw passes through the bar and threads into the steel case of the load center (breaker box) thus bonding the 2 circuits.
But only at this one place can they be connected.
(On a side note )
Have you verified with an ohm meter that your rig has the neutral and ground connected? If you have and they indeed are solidly connected, please investigate why this is not tripping your gfci breakers.
Because they should be tripping before you can even get the RV plug into the outlet all the way.
The "upstream" GFCI would only trip if there is actually a load to be "picked-up" when you "plug-in"..
Most cases there would be, but....
Hmmmm...
We have discussed, and comfirmed (??) how a GFCI wall outlet breaker works but frankly I can't see how the GFCI CB in my panel could work in the same way since at that point the neutral line is "bundled" with all other neutral lines. All connected to the very same ground bus bar.
????
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
Soooooooooooo after all of the above, my inverter is grouded properly and it is OK to hook into the RV's electrical system.
That depends on whether or not the neutral line is tied to ground inside the motor home at or near its power distribution box. Mine certainly is. There doesn't seem to be any regulation or standard one way or another.
Assuming your Xantrex has a HOT neutral, which certainly seems to be the case, I would NOT assume that the neutral ISN'T grounded inside the MH.
Personally if you find that is is grounded I would leave it alone and buy a more conventional, safer, MSW inverter. You cannot easily know why the manufactuerer chose to ground the neutral, it may have been for very good and substantial reasons.
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
Not knowing the actual internal workings of modern day GFCI outlets or CB's I have assumed they somehow measure the current in the high side line and the neutral line and if there is a difference it trips.
Anyone know if that is or isn't the actual method...?
Yes, that is the method used.
Most common gfci use a current transformer with both sides of the circuit passing through it.
When the current on the 2 wires is equal, the transformer shows no voltage because the magnetic fields cancel each other out.
When the current is un-equal, the transformer shows voltage and the gfci trips.
See Here for an illustration.
So, given that, I take it at least you would agree with me that the neutral line can be grounded anywhere, and many times, upstream (toward the power source) of the GFCI but not, never downstream...??
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
wwest wrote:
Strange....
My MH has a ground bus bar mounted directly behind the converter (power panel) and both the DC and AC circuit's ground and AC neutral are connected in common at that point.
All of my garage CB's are of the GFCI type and when the MH is plugged into one of the garage's outside outlets it runs just fine. The only noteable thing is that if the RV's GFCI breaker trips so will the "source" GFI CB in the garage.Although this is true for older GFCIs, both GFCI breakers & receptacles for at least the past 10 years also include circuitry that detects a ground/neutral fault, and trips. This is to prevent shocks caused by tying grounds to neutrals. This is why many individuals have had problems with their RVs tripping home or campground GFCIs even with the RV's breakers off. If the GFCI breakers in your garage hold with the grounds & neutrals tied together in your RV's distribution panel, you must have older GFCIs.
Not knowing the actual internal workings of modern day GFCI outlets or CB's I have assumed they somehow measure the current in the high side line and the neutral line and if there is a difference it trips.
Anyone know if that is or isn't the actual method...?
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
I can tell you that if I EVER find a white wire, neutral line, that isn't connected to system ground at the poweer distribution panel I will be very quick to fix that flaw.
Please tell me you're not an electrician, please please. Man this is electrical 101, the only place a neutral is bonded to the ground is at the source...IE "the main". Sub panels, like RVs need to have the ground and neutrals isolated.
Sam
My home has only ONE power distribution panel and that was my "thinking" when I wrote that.
RE: Propane / Electric...which is cheaper (the answer)
cannesdo, I don't think the guys here were ridiculing you, just making a little light of your wording, I got a chuckle out of it as well and I am not in the least mean spirited.
At any rate, don't let this bother you and continue asking questions so that you and yours get through the winter months in your rv. The forum has a good bunch of people here and I am positive you will get the answers you need.
You never know who you're talking to online. You don't know if that person was just typing fast, or has some congnitive deficiency that has caused them to be the target of ridicule over the course of their entire life. As it happens I have a very high body burden of mercury and have been fighting my way back to "functional" for 11 years now after I fought for, and got, my diagnosis at age 30. I'm one of the few women I know who are driving a big rig around this country on her own and I learned early on that you can pretty much count on getting the "you're an idiot" tone/response, here in this forum, from at least a few people every time you stick your neck out and offer something up. That's why I try to find my answers elsewhere most of the time.
I have a great sense of humor -- I am one of those women who can hold her own, even in a room full of men -- but I've had a really hard week, and whenever I have a rough time, the Hg plays havoc with the brain and I end up stuttering, misspelling everything, and just generally making a lot of stupid mistakes. After two long days of driving from MN, I've been wandering around a hometown that is almost unrecognizable, trying to prepare my rig for the winter, trying to hold myself together in the face of all of physical, emotional and economic challenges. I'm giving everything I've got to babystepping through this particularly difficult transition.
So...for what it's worth -- a reality check. Not everyone is living the life you live. We're not all healthy, we don't all have the support system you enjoy. Is it so hard to just resolve to joke around with the people you know personally? Isn't that just common courtesy? I just can't imagine doing that with someone I don't know. You wouldn't do that in person would you? Why do it here?
I'm as playful as the next person, but, honestly, if you feel the need to point something like that out, knowing nothing about me or my health issues, or the kind of week I've had, you *are* either 1) just plain rude, maybe even with a touch of "bully" or 2) You need to get out more.
I would not indulge in that kind of "play" with a stranger -- with any of you -- here, or in person. I just wouldn't get enough out of that kind of quip to make it worth the risk of making a stranger's day worse than it already is. And *especially* not when that person took time out of her day to share some information she feels might be helpful to her fellow travelers.
I have never experienced the kind of rude, self-serving input I see in this forum out on the road. Who was it that said that you find out who a person really is when they are offered the cloak of anonymity...
Well, there is MT and then there is Montana. This is the "banana belt", the bitter-root valley, and there is Cut Bank....
My wife is from Lewistown and my sister lived all of her adult life in Cut Bank.
If you're in one of the warmer MT areas then I would suggest converting your MH to a heat pump, for 1KW of input it will typically yeild 3KW of heat, provided the OAT is above ~40F.
For best cost savings overall I would rely on the heat pump as the primary heat (and A/C) source and electric otherwise. You might even be able to get a Heat Pump with enough electric resistance "emgergency" heating that you wouldn't need any other source.
But I must say..
There are many places in MT that even a mobile home, well insulated, cannot be heated well enough in the wintertime for human comfort.
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
The purpose of a GFCI CB is to determine that any current flowing in the high side line is equal to the (return) circuit current flowing in the neutral circuit, line. The GFCI doesn't "care" why the inbalance exists, just that it should not, NEVER should.
So it doesn't matter where the neutral is grounded or how many times or places, upstream of the GFCI, just as long as not even the slightest grounding occurs downstream of the GFCI
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
Or else the power distribution "panel" inside your MH/RV doesn't have the incoming neutral wire grounded as the NEC requires.
UM,,, you might want to go re-read that.
The NEC classes TTs & MHs as a "plug-in appliance". Not a typical home system.
If the NEC required all TTs & MHs to have neutral bonded to ground, nobody would be able to plug into a GFCI protected CG power pole.
It would instantly trip.
In addition to the ground wire being now used as a current path, which also is against the NEC.
The ground is to be used as a safety ONLY!
Strange....
My MH has a ground bus bar mounted directly behind the converter (power panel) and both the DC and AC circuit's ground and AC neutral are connected in common at that point.
All of my garage CB's are of the GFCI type and when the MH is plugged into one of the garage's outside outlets it runs just fine. The only noteable thing is that if the RV's GFCI breaker trips so will the "source" GFI CB in the garage.
I can tell you that if I EVER find a white wire, neutral line, that isn't connected to system ground at the poweer distribution panel I will be very quick to fix that flaw.
RE: Readings From Inverter When Using Circuit Tester
I don't see how any harm could/would come from using a 3-wire single device extension code
----------------
Ok I appreciate your concern, but I really don't want to give up using the inverter outside with shore power into it, so I want to get this clear, sorry to be a pest!
How is the three prong shore power cable into the inverter three prong receptacle and then to the AC dist panel, then its receptacles circuit (three prong) with a television with a two prong plug (one fat, one not)plugged into one of those trailer receptacles, different electrically so it is unsafe, from just using a three prong extension cord into the inverter and the two prong tv plugged into the other end of the extension cord?
Sorry, I misread your post initially...
"inverter outside with shore power into it..."
I assume here you meant to say an inverter outside supplying "shore" power to the MH/RV.
I originally answered the question in the context of an extension cable from the outside inverter directly connected to the TV inside the MH/RV.
My additional assumption would be that the extension cable female receptable is polarized so a two prong male connection would only plug in correctly.
"I really don't want to give up using the inverter outside with shore power into it.."
If you are, or have already used your inverter to supply shore power to your MH/RV then you can most probably rest assured that it isn't designed along the lines of the potentially dangerous Xantrex type MSW inverter.
Or else the power distribution "panel" inside your MH/RV doesn't have the incoming neutral wire grounded as the NEC requires.
